ABS or no ABS?

"JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7" (jayzayeighty)
08/12/2014 at 15:18 • Filed to: None

From the standpoint of spirited driving in dry conditions, what is preferred? I don't have any in the '85, but every year after mine did. Is it a level of driver freedom and skill taken away or a vital safety feature to you? (Not talking about daily driving and inclement weather)

DISCUSSION (53)

Party-vi > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:22

ABS lets me know that I need stickier rubber or that I have hit my threshold for braking.

Jayhawk Jake > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:23

I've never noticed ABS interfering with fun. Then again I've never driven a car without it, so I don't really know what it's like to not have it.

In general though, I feel like ABS's safety benefits far outweight whatever performance benefit there is to be gained without it.

RazoE > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:24

After 85 it became optional as my 3 Supras didn't have ABS (86.5, 89, and 92). I honestly do like it. I have it in my IS300 and I've had to do a VERY hard stop when an ambulance turned its lights on a few seconds before it decided to run a red. I know I've locked up the tires on my 89 Supra before and it's not fun sitting there semi-sideways with a cloud of smoke coming from your car and the angry look of the guy in front of you.

Jedidiah > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:24

I personally do NOT like the way abs systems feel.

After driving cars without abs for so long, you do notice a bit of a difference.

I doubt I'd call it a necessarry safety device, learning good braking techniques and keeping a good following distance will be keep you safe.

Edit: I meant to say NOT.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Jayhawk Jake
08/12/2014 at 15:25

I've never understood why ABS is considered a bad thing, sure maybe map out a more aggressive setting somehow, but remove it entirely?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:26

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Until you reach the level of professional racing driver, ABS will save you 1000x more often than it will slow you down or interfere with fun. When learning on a track - by all means disable it to learn what your brakes and tires are capable of. But on the street? If your car has it, leave it on.

Flavien Vidal > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:26

I like it in my Corvette... Not intrusive at all and atually pretty good, even on the snow.

JR1 > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:26

I think it is a good feature to have. But then again I have never had a non ABS car

mcseanerson > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:26

In rally no ABS is a must. Also no ABS helps with trail breaking fwd cars.

JGrabowMSt > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:27

No ABS. In any conditions.

I'd rather lock up all four than lose braking power. Why? Control the skid. If you're not skidding, you have no way of controlling the skid. My DD has no ABS, and I'm 100% certain it has saved me from hitting several deer, by allowing me to put every ounce into the tires and stopping the damn car.

My new car has both ABS and Assistive Braking, things which I find incredibly dangerous, specifically with people behind me. My 4600lb wagon will come to a complete stop a lot faster than people think. I'm genuinely concerned about someone rear ending me because they aren't paying enough attention to see how fast the car is coming to a complete stop. Especially if the weather is bad. I do my best to not mash the brakes, but there are unavoidable situations.

claramag, Mustaco Master > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:27

ABS is my favorite electric nanny, and the only add on I really wish my base model '00 mustang had

Party-vi > Jedidiah
08/12/2014 at 15:27

I did all that and I still slammed into the back of a vehicle at 40mph. If I had ABS I'd still have a Cherokee to drive. ABS is definitely a necessary safety device, considering most drivers do NOT know good braking techniques and do not keep safe following distances.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jedidiah
08/12/2014 at 15:28

Until you panic and lock them up. It takes a LOT of practice to get the confidence to not lock up the brakes in a panic situation without ABS. Especially in the wet. It isn't "necessary" but good braking technique taught over and over again can't always account for the real world. Just when you think you've figured these idiots out, along comes a brand new form of stupid....

Party-vi > JGrabowMSt
08/12/2014 at 15:30

If you're not skidding, then you don't need to control the skid. If you put everything you've got into your brakes and you're tires haven't broken loose than you need some new brakes or have some awesome tires.

macanamera > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:31

ABS always. It doesn't interfere with fun, but it interferes with death.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Flavien Vidal
08/12/2014 at 15:32

I've heard it's nice to have in a lot of situations. I think all C4s have the Bosch ABS II system, and I don't know what I'll be missing out on.

Jayhawk Jake > Jedidiah
08/12/2014 at 15:33

I feel like ABS is intended primarily for extreme emergency braking conditions, so I think it is a necessary safety device.

Manuél Ferrari > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:34

One thing I'm not sure about - do earlier iterations of ABS feel more intrusive on track than modern ABS?

Montalvo > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:34

On a closed course or road I would say no. However if you are driving quickly on public roads then yes. I had a very close call before and the only thing that kept me from being plastered all over the dash was ABS. I was driving around on a relatively straight section, with perfect weather and visibility. I was pushing the speed limit a bit and got to an intersection where someone had the turn when the coast is clear light. They thought they could make it before I got there. Nope, not a chance and as soon as I saw them turn I hammered the brakes. That was the first time I ever felt the ABS actually kick back like holy shit defcon 5 mode. ABS did its thing and saved that dumbass from a life version of a t-bone safety test. Tires screached, lines of rubber were laid on the road and my chest felt like I got strong armed fron an NFL linebacker. After screaming, venting and thanking God, I was just thankful BMW knows what the hell they were doing with their brakes. It just added to my paranoia that everyone on the road has barely enough iq points to breathe.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
08/12/2014 at 15:34

For as much as people rag on stance, people removing safety systems like ABS and airbags to be more "racecar" when they're 18 or so are just as bad. Possibly even worse since a lot (sadly not all) of stancebros know their car should be driven slow. Hell when I had a stanced jetta, those show exits/entrances were the slowest ever as everyone was trying not to scrape on the potholes and curbs. Meanwhile "vance petrol" just saw F&F 6, guts his mom's old camry, pulls the ABS and stability control fuses and then we wonder how in the hell this happens:

Kinja'd!!!

Jayhawk Jake > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
08/12/2014 at 15:35

It feels like traction control for wannabe street racers these days: always turn it off so you can go fast, bro. In reality the vast majority of drivers don't have enough skill where having ABS off would help them drive any better than having it on.

Jedidiah > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
08/12/2014 at 15:35

People have driven vehicles without ABS for many years, as have I. I enjoy opportunities to practice my driving and personally don't care whether my car has it. The time it takes to learn something should be irrelevant so long as you learn it.

I'd prefer it if other drivers had cars equipped with ABS since many people do not know how to do a panic stop or maintain a proper distance.

I can always put better rotors and pads on it if I want to stop in a shorter amount of time.

Just wear your damn mask... > JGrabowMSt
08/12/2014 at 15:38

What Party-vi said. ABS allows you to at least brake and turn a little bit. If you lock up the car is going off in the last direction it is traveling, independent of whether it is spinning or not.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:38

I've never once driven a car with ABS and thought "Gee, it's great, but it would be better without Antilock Brakes"

In contrast, I do drive my F-150 with RABS (Rear ABS), and I would rather have 4ABS (like was installed on a 1995 Bronco, which is the SAME THING as my 1995 F-150) especially while towing. Locking the trailer brakes isn't that awful, as the brake controller is set to be just below locking power, but ABS will stop something faster than no ABS, and it can control the brakes faster than you can.

Jedidiah > Party-vi
08/12/2014 at 15:43

Sorry to hear that; it sucks, but accidents happen.

Unless the conditions were extremely slipperey, bigger/better disk brakes would have probably helped you stop in time.

Unless someone pulled out in front of you, hitting them at 40 mph sounds like you weren't following at a good distance.

I understand that there are certain environmental and unpredictable traffic scenarios that can determine whether you are driving the car home, but some wrecks are unavoidable regardless of whether it has technology like ABS.

Flavien Vidal > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:43

It's a "fast" ABS... lots of tiny little kicks instead of the huge slow pedal kicks you get with more normal cars... Honestly very efficient. And you are just one fuse away from disabling it anyway :)

Same for the traction control... I actually keep it at all time when driving on the snow. It's much much more efficient than me at feathering the throttle and finding grip. Insanely good on the snow!

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jedidiah
08/12/2014 at 15:44

They have driven them without ABS for decades, that is true. Road fatalities were also much higher back in the days before ABS, stability control, crumple zones, no drunk driving laws, etc. But you're missing the point. What I'm getting at is that no matter how good you *think* you are, that ABS is much more likely to save you since it is designed to correct for panic situations. With ABS, you can stand on the brake and steer without the need for pumping of the brakes to maintain pressure and preventing lockup.

Better brakes and whatnot again don't help when you *panic*.

jariten1781 > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 15:46

I was adamantly opposed to ABS for years after poor experiences with early systems. Violent shaking, cutting way too much braking force, coming on and off too slowly/erratically...

However, everything I've had in the last decade has been awesome. I wouldn't get a new car without it.

Jedidiah > Jayhawk Jake
08/12/2014 at 15:47

I guess it depends on your confidence level of both your own ability and the ability of your car.

Only in extreme weather conditions it will it likely make a difference, but nothing is stopping you from pulling over and letting the weather pass until you feel safe to drive again.

I would say that good decision making is more important than abs.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jayhawk Jake
08/12/2014 at 15:47

The instructors at Miller Motorsports Park told us this when we were learning to drive the STs on the track - Leave the safeties on. If they "cut in" then you weren't going smooth and therefore you weren't going fast. The systems know to allow a small slip angle so they won't hamper handling to anything near an unsafe degree.

I didn't test it, I was confident they were right. My one "moment" came when I was at the back of the line of the Focuses and I gunned it coming out of a turn but I went on too soon and let off mid-steer so the back end came round a bit. It looked and sounded cool, but it was slow and the little light came on to remind me I did it wrong.

Jedidiah > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
08/12/2014 at 15:51

Road fatalities aren't the majority of people, most people who drove cars witout abs were just fine.

ABS does help you do a panic stop; I am not disputing that, but I don't see the necessity in most typical driving scenarios.

You should avoid situations when you anticipate the possibility of a panic stop in the first place.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > jariten1781
08/12/2014 at 15:51

Well I guess I've avoided early ABS in that case, although it would make sense on a practical level.

feather-throttle-not-hair > Jayhawk Jake
08/12/2014 at 15:54

This. Sure I turn my TCS off for a few seconds/minutes when I know i want some sideways action. But good god, no harm in leaving it on normally when any slides that come my way are unexpected .

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > macanamera
08/12/2014 at 15:55

The only thing interfering with death in my car is... uh...

nothing.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Manuél Ferrari
08/12/2014 at 15:56

You'd think it would have evolved over the years to be more versatile, but I wouldn't know.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jedidiah
08/12/2014 at 15:58

"You should avoid situations when you anticipate the possibility of a panic stop in the first place."

...I'm going to assume you were trying for something else there. You enter a panic situation because things just went from "completely normal" to "I might get hurt or killed right now" so there is no avoiding times when you think a panic stop will happen.

I agree it isn't necessary for most driving situations. If you're riding the ABS at every stop, those are the people who burn through rotors and pads like motor oil. But then you're not using it either way so until you need ABS, you don't notice that you have it.

JGrabowMSt > Party-vi
08/12/2014 at 16:03

Okay, but when you're braking, and the car stops braking, for whatever reason, even briefly, that moment of roll can be a large distance depending on the speed you're traveling, and can mean the difference between a collision or not.

Jayhawk Jake > feather-throttle-not-hair
08/12/2014 at 16:04

I turn it off at autox, but frankly I should really try running with it because I had a pretty fast time when I left it on by accident.

Otherwise it's always on, which is a great idea. I hit a puddle once and nearly had the wheel ripped out of my hands, traction control kicked in and probably saved my life by braking the wheel that wasn't hydroplaning

Jayhawk Jake > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
08/12/2014 at 16:05

I keep debating leaving it on for autocross. On one hand because racecar leave it off and drive faster, on the other hand it probably would help me run faster...

Jedidiah > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
08/12/2014 at 16:05

You are correct. My last statement wasn't well thought-out.

I am an overly cautious driver — I do not go drive in bad weather or times of high traffic and if I get caught in those situations I pull over. The statement was intended to be geared towards avoiding unnecessary danger.

Of course, as you pointed out panic scenarios are unavoidable like if a deer leaps out from behind a tree.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jedidiah
08/12/2014 at 16:12

No worries, I thought about weather for a second but then again I just had a panic stop situation yesterday where a semi ran off the road and some of the cargo fell out of the back. Clear summer afternoon in August on a well maintained road.....Not much I could do to not be in that situation but no one else got hit. They are more likely to happen during bad weather and yeah when the news reporters say "Don't drive unless necessary" they typically mean it.

Pixel > JGrabowMSt
08/12/2014 at 16:23

ABS only cuts in if a wheel has started skidding, it just does it fast enough you don't notice the skid. It keeps the car at threshold braking(the most effective braking) at all four wheels.

You are arguing that abs is bad because it stops braking, increasing the braking distance, then say your new car is dangerous because the ABS and assistive braking make it stop much faster than other cars. It can't be both.

Pixel > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 16:28

ABS all the way. It has saved my ass on more than one occasion.

In addition to being safer because it prevents lockup, it is one less thing I have to worry about in an emergency. Instead of having to threshold brake AND steer AND look for a possible out and everything else, I can just stomp on the pedal and let the car worry about the braking part while I worry about the rest.

JGrabowMSt > Pixel
08/12/2014 at 16:34

The assistive braking is what scares me the most on my new car, not the ABS. My DD has no ABS, and I'm definitely happy that way.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Jedidiah
08/12/2014 at 16:49

When I crashed my sentra, it wasn't because of lack of brake, it was lack of traction. It may have not prevented the accident, but it probably wouldn't have been a write off. I would never turn off ABS.

Manuél Ferrari > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 16:50

that was my guess too, but i'm not sure

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > JR1
08/12/2014 at 16:56

I had one, now I don't partially because it didn't have ABS

Shifty > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 17:26

I have it on my Corvette, but not on my Z/28....for performance driving, I actually prefer not to have it...I don't know how to best explain it, but my pedal feels a little more "live" or connected...

n54 & s38 > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/12/2014 at 18:36

This is where I diverge from the whole purist crowd. I won't drive a car that's not a stick. I don't like navigation or a whole bunch of unneccessary gadgets in my car. But I don't understand the whole mentality of "ABS and traction control just get in the way of my madd skillz". Clearly anybody who thinks ABS is a drag has never had to make an emergency stop in the middle of a Canadian winter (even with snow tires). I also don't understand all the idiots who turn off traction control as soon as they get in the car, regardless of what they're doing/weather and road conditions, etc. And who are then shocked when they stuff their car up in the rain.

My E90 has fully defeatable traction control. I think i've turned it off once. Just for the hell of it. Then immediately turned it back on. Because honestly, when I'm driving on the road, I have zero need to turn it off. If it's constantly coming on and dialing back the power/applying the brakes, how poorly are you driving on the street?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jayhawk Jake
08/12/2014 at 20:18

On the sonic, unless they have a specifically tuned "sport" setting, you will be faster with it off once you get accustomed to it. The FiST has a sport mode and from what I've heard, it is slightly faster with it on when you do sharp turns since the short wheelbase makes it very easy to spin like a top where the traction control will modulate individual brakes to make you look like you meant it if you leave it on.Of course, the absolute fastest way is with it off but that is at a very high level of skill and you probably aren't using it as a grocery getter at that point.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > n54 & s38
08/12/2014 at 20:28

I definitely see where you're coming from and I agree. My mom's Z4 has defeatable traction control, although you're not going to be spinning the tires without getting up there in the rev range with the N52 but it's a gem of a drivetrain and still can get you in trouble if you want. I would still use it at almost all times, because why the hell not? I completely am the same way with being a purist about everything else. My '85 Corvette doesn't have ABS, which was bothering me because all of the reviews of the '86 say it's miles better due to ABS (I spend most of my time regretting things I do the rest of the time). It's a classic car anyways, and a decent handful at that, so I almost feel that ABS and TC would not really improve on it because of the reasons I have it and because of its character (as stupid as that sounds). If it's there and you don't use it to try to prove something, though, you probably shouldn't be defeating it.

Tohru > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7
08/13/2014 at 02:22

I don't have ABS on anything I own - that Goddamned shit is dangerous. I've almost wrecked two vehicles because of that nanny-state bullshit kicking in and making things worse. I've DD'd non-ABS, ABS-deactivated, and pre-ABS vehicles in rain, sleet, more kinds of snow than you can shake a stick at, and ice.

If you can't drive a vehicle in inclement weather without ABS, you're not a skilled driver. End of story. Same thing goes for traction control - if you need a computer to coddle you like that you should be driving a CVT.

Party-vi > JGrabowMSt
08/13/2014 at 08:32

The car does not stop braking though - the ABS prevents wheel lock-up while still applying braking force to the rotors. The coefficient of friction of a skidding wheel is less than the coefficient of friction for a rolling (non-skidding) wheel, meaning it absolutely takes a longer distance to stop on a skidding wheel that has lost traction with the pavement than a wheel that still has traction. Take the same cars with the same tires, but only one equipped with ABS and it's impossible for the non-ABS car to stop in a shorter distance.

If you're emergency-braking and you're tires do not lock up then you're brakes are not pushing your tires to their limits. I know that I'll take ABS over non-ABS every day.